Yuku free message boards

Bearded in BC wrote:

---

LightEagle wrote:

---

Bearded in BC wrote:

---

I think it is more useful to simply define the beard as a definite mark of masculinity and leave it at that.

If a beard is a definite mark of masculinity, how could it not be that a lack of one might suggest femininity?

LightEagle,

I don't really understand your desire to associate a clean shaven face with femininity. I believe that men should be able to choose to shave or to grow whatever beard they would like. Your clean shaven/feminine connection only suggests a judgment that could be hurtful to some.

Brother, I have no "desire to associate a clean shaven face with femininity." I am simply stating a fact that is plain to see as a person's face and for which I have already given two proofs you can independently test and verify for yourself. Again, no harm was or is intended; this thread was started from my heart to address a social harm by identifying some underlying themes -- and then giving love and support to rise above them. Since I started growing a few months ago, my son has made it clear repeatedly that he never intends to shave in his whole life (he is 6) and set the world record for the longest beard. (Kids are a hoot.) If he sticks with it, I know well what he'll go through in the early years of sparse development and social scorn, and I'll embrace the whole shebang just like I do with any other male going from boyhood to manhood.

The only judgment I am seeing in this latest off topic conversation is the judgment of me for telling the truth of the matter.

I think it is only fair if I expect to be treated equally with a beard to treat others, bearded or not, with the same respect

I have not disrespected people who choose to androgenize their faces. I also respect the right of men to wear dresses, put on makeup, shave their eyebrows and draw them in with pens, wear high heels and play the role of a female in their relations with other men, too. They've got a right to do that. But I'm not going to pretend it makes them more manly to do those things. The girlifying of men via the razor has been going on for a very long time; none of us is going to change it on a large scale. But we can encourage men to let their faces shine, and that includes those with sparse coverage -- the point of this post.

I really like the bearded look, but that certainly doesn't mean I condemn shaving.

I don't condemn shaving, per se. I do condemn (harshly) the rude and self-righteous social expectation that men shave to conform to the feminization that underlies the procedure. That I find wholly disgusting and I condemn it openly and boldly any chance life offers the opportunity to do so -- especially when that hateful, anti-man mindset is forced upon young men who are early in facial hair development. Up theirs; keep growing; your natural face is beautiful; let it prosper.

Phil said:
you seem to respect people with good beards more than you do cleanshaven people

To some extent, but not completely. I'll give you examples each way. (This needs its own thread!)

Validating your supposition: If two equally qualified candidates come in for a job and are basically the same but only one is bearded, I'd hire him and not the androgyne. I'd consciously and subconsciously believe he's more in touch with himself and consider him therefore more qualified for the job even if their work history and skills sets all appeared equal. Even then, I'm not sure that denotes respect as much as it does trust.

Denying your supposition: If a guy with a beard breaks in through the back bedroom window at 3am, I promise you I will load him up with buckshot or plug him with a .45ACP (depending upon how much warning I have to get to the shotgun, which is nearly always preferable for home defense). Bearded or not, he is toast.

That is to say, there are many things that go into assessing the character of a man, and whiskers can at times play a role while at other times be irrelevant.

by making it sound like it's a bad thing to shave, you are really no better than the people who condemn growing beards.

Did I say shaving is bad? I thought we were talking about how a smooth-shaved face was less masculine / more feminine than a bearded face. If you are going to change the topic yet again, we'll be needing to start new threads to keep up!

I don't mean to offend you, but I think you are being rather negative and judgemental.

If stating a plain, simple, obvious, accepted-as-true-for-centuries fact makes me judgmental and negative though I feel no negativity or judgment, perhaps there is something for you to look at in all of this, Phil. Let something grow and stay on your face and you'll look more masculine -- a fact even beard-haters must admit.

With that, I'll jump back into this conversation in reply since it's now an open one again. But I genuinely think it would better serve the community to open a new thread on the subject. If you do, send me a PM and I will read it and apply if it's attractive enough to get involved. It's going to be a busy day and week, so I'm not sure how quickly I can return.

Scott, the operative phrase I intended to draw out is now bolded: "two equally qualified candidates come in for a job and are basically the same but only one is bearded..." All things being equal, as I said, I'd hire the man who prefers himself to look more like a man and prefers to carry his masculinity openly. I'd pick him first for a game of dodgeball, too. (I hope that made you smile.)

RE: your assertion that "using the loaded term androgyne to descibe those who are unbearded feels harsh to me," let's look at the meaning of the word I intended rather than the one you may have inferred: "one that combines major aspects of both the male and the female." http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=8&q=androgen

A major physical attribute of males not common to females is the substantial growth of darker and more coarse facial hair. On this point, which is a fact, I hope we can all agree. Removal of that unique male characteristic inherently brings a man away from that "major aspect" of being a male toward a "major aspect" of being female -- giving him the look that is natural to a female and removing from him the very facial look that distinguishes him as a male.

I'm not talking about people's feelings about those facts but merely the facts themselves.

You might also note that the words "androgyne" and "androgen" are remarkably similar -- the latter being a hormone that is essential in the body's production of facial hair. The actual definition from dictionary.com is: "any substance, as testosterone or androsterone, that promotes male characteristics." http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=8&q=androgyne

Interesting -- to me anyway. I like words. I know you do, too.

For the record, I don't think there is anything wrong with a male preferring to look less male than he was naturally designed to look. Heck, I did it for a couple of decades, and I seem to have survived with most of my faculties intact. I believe in the freedom of personal choice, so long as those freedoms do not violate the rights of another. Yet it still remains that a male removing an inherently male characteristic does indeed move him toward a more androgenous look -- by sheer definition of the word and the physical differences between a man and a woman -- regardless of how you or anyone else may feel about it. That is not an opinion; it is a fact of nature. Natural man has facial hair. Natural woman does not. It is truly as simple as that. If you infer any more than that from my words, I refer you back to what I have said rather than what meaning you may have unintentionally added.

When you told your brother, after he shaved off his beard, that he "looked like a woman," you weren't completely accurate; he just looked more like one than he did with a beard -- because he removed the primary characteristic on the adult human face that distinguishes him as male. I'm not sure why anyone would object to that statement since it is so blatantly obvious. That anyone would have trouble understanding such simplicity is more than a little odd. It's as if certain people are defending the "right to shave and still be a man." I have not and would not attack that right. I simply suggest that if you're arguing that a shaved face looks more manly/masculine and less female/feminine, the human physiology and planetwide social agreement is in total disharmony with that idea.

I will say that the millenia-old feminization of men is working nicely; now we have men arguing that they look more like a man when they shave off the only characteristic on their own faces that clearly reveals them to be male. That is truly funny.